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Barry

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Many years ago someone I knew had an AA can't remember which model but it was putting about 2 & half grouping at 45 yards. When he called,Bill Saunders basically said what do you expect from an air rifle.

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Well, having had a good look around inside my FTP900, I am now on board with Colin and Barry, in that I think the level of AT fitted goes beyong keeping 'fiddlers' out, to the point where the kind of adjustments we would expect to make on FT rfles to compensate for changing conditions (cold to hot for instance) or a change of pellet are unavaiable.

 

Give that rifles like the 100 series, Pro-Target and originla EV2 had these adjustments, I fail to uderstand the thought process that now feels they are necessary.... actually, I DO understand; the motivation is money, and dragging more out of us, the customer.

 

So, when needed, the FTP will have all the exsessive gubbins removed.

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Issues aside AMTA and all that, bottom line its done so the above average diyer cant take apart, with the serious stupid over tightening of tubes rules out the hardened gunsmiths.

Like when buy a car from a dealer you can bargain and get serious discounts 25% knowing or hoping they would get the horrendous costs of servicing. Same applies here intension to keep in house and charge for the privaledge but cant do the job any way.

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100% in agreement Jon.

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Issues aside AMTA and all that, bottom line its done so the above average diyer cant take apart, with the serious stupid over tightening of tubes rules out the hardened gunsmiths.

Like when buy a car from a dealer you can bargain and get serious discounts 25% knowing or hoping they would get the horrendous costs of servicing. Same applies here intension to keep in house and charge for the privaledge but cant do the job any way.

100% Jon, if it were the case that you bought say an FTP for £1500, but included in that price was the provision for AA to keep the rifle at your chosen legal fps, then I wouldn't be so cranky about AT. But considering that in the price is the rifle and that any adjustment is charged for then it's pretty obvious it's just about fleecing more money out of the customer.

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Just had a conversation with my mate Russ. He phoned to let me know he has my Korick reg checker, and then asked if I was going to be working on rifles again. I said that I had an EV2 to look at for Mark at the Hawks. He then asked if I'd look at his EV2 when I had a minute, as it had not long come back from the AA factory and was only shooting around 730 to 740 fps over the chrono (deja vu Colin?) yet the AA printout had it at 785. He said that he could not get the velocity up using the transfer port and hammer spring and that 740 was the maximum velocity he could get (deja vu Colin?).

 

So, I have agreed to look at it, as we both suspect the reg could do with a tweak.

 

Anyone spot a pattern here?

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Pretty shrewd neil . some would say good business . some would say they are sharks ??? HOLLY

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Just had a conversation with my mate Russ. He phoned to let me know he has my Korick reg checker, and then asked if I was going to be working on rifles again. I said that I had an EV2 to look at for Mark at the Hawks. He then asked if I'd look at his EV2 when I had a minute, as it had not long come back from the AA factory and was only shooting around 730 to 740 fps over the chrono (deja vu Colin?) yet the AA printout had it at 785. He said that he could not get the velocity up using the transfer port and hammer spring and that 740 was the maximum velocity he could get (deja vu Colin?).

 

So, I have agreed to look at it, as we both suspect the reg could do with a tweak.

 

Anyone spot a pattern here?

Disgusting really considering that they are the ones 'tampering' with people's property without consent. Are they really that stupid to think that the owners aren't going to stick their rifles over a chrono and just believe the supplied AA report.

It's bad enough that they're restricting new target rifles, but to retro-fit AT on rifles sent in for a service is just plain criminal.

 

How they think people can be competitive with AA products when you're up against German products that can run at a decent fps without any restrictions just defies belief. As I've mentioned before, I'd be very interested to know what the official AA shooters are running at with their EV's and FTP's, I suspect that their AT is removed to allow them the freedom to tweak fps; I can't see them being happy to run a stressed rifle in the 720-740fps range with their fellow competitors all at 780fps with unstressed rifles.

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I'm seeing Kev Jackman tomorrow, he is due to be taking delivery of an FTP for Nick, I'll ask if it's in yet, and if it is, I'll ask about AT.

 

This is now the third rifle I have heard of that has come back from AA unfit for use (inc yours Colin) .

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Neil, this mirrors what happened to my mark 1. It went to AA for a general service with an instruction not to fit AT (which wasn't present as it was a 2004 model, made before AT got going). I also asked in advance if they would set the rifle up with 7.9 grain Mossies, and they said send us some test pellets as we don't keep them.

 

It came back with the pellets unused and a curt note saying it was policy only to set up with AA 8.4s. When I ran the rifle over our club Skan (which has an in-date calibration certificate) it was between 10 and 11fpe. A tweak of the transfer port made no change whatsoever as it was fully open. OK, let's tinker with the hammer spring; no success, it was already on the point of being coil bound when cocked.

 

It had to be, the reg pressure was far too high. Nothing I could do, so live with it for now, and with the frustration and dismay.

 

A few months later I was doing a training session with some of the students at our club, explaining what a reg does and how it flattens the power curve, sometimes with a small climb as the gun comes off the reg, then a rapid drop off. We set the chrono up and recorded every shot. It batted along in the high 700s, then as the pressure fell we saw the velocity creep up, 790, 800, 810, 820, and I'm thinking, it will drop off any minute now.

 

Not a bit of it, 825, 826, then 829 - which is too much (!) - and a dozen teenage students wagged their fingers at me.

 

A call to AA in the morning was unproductive. It was alleged that either I or one of my amateur gunsmith friends in Devon must have been tinkering with it. This was now some months since the service and I was told it was too late for me to take issue with their workmanship. If I wanted it sorted - and technically it was OTT if my chrono is to be believed - I would have to pay again, for another service.

 

I suggested I would send it back, but only pay for the work once I had the rifle back here and was happy with it, which drew the response, you no pay, you no get gun back.

 

A well known amateur (!) whom I don't intend to name had the rifle from me. Kevin J declined as he knew he couldn't get the air tube undone, he had just had that problem with Terry's. Not only was the reg pressure found to be far too high at something over 115 bar, it was reported to me that the trigger had been incorrectly assembled.

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Sad tale Rich, so that's now FOUR rifles I know of.

 

I'd love to know how they do the air tubes up so tight (I obviously know why). I know Kev has had to send a tube / reg back and have the factory separate it, but there are only so many times he can call in that favour.

 

Fingers crossed I can get the couple I have lined up to bits. At least with my checker, I should be able to see what's going on in the reg.

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ON the anschutz 2002 . the reg is directly available from underneath ??? HOLLY

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ON the anschutz 2002 . the reg is directly available from underneath ??? HOLLY

Well don't let Air Arms near it, or you'll never get the damn thing off.

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More than a few years ago I have seen how the air tubes on Rn10s are done up in the factory and it made me look away and I then knew why they where so hard to undo. My Rns cylinder and regs where on ever hand tight as when any air was put in the cylinder there was no way of it ever coming undone. Bit like the canister oil filters as soon as the canister hit the engine block tightening it any more will not seal the o ring any more. The RN Korick reg just had a small hole to put a but of rod which was 2 inch long which Joe sent over to do them up and he said he has some times had to put the cylinder in his lathe chuck and hit the action with a rubber hammer to undo it.

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Keith get a silencer on the shutz . you know you wanna , and you get graham following you about all the time ??? HOLLY

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I was always told not to have a silencer on a FT rig. But may be I will have a look round for a bit of tube or see what my brother Graham has. MMMMMMMM. Mind you I think i was one of those who do not have any problems with the chrono Graham had at the SEFTA WL comp as soon as it was set up with the bigger battery.

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Graham is a deeply suspicious man Keith . if he sees you in a comp with a yard long moderator he is gonna think you are up to something ??? HOLLY

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Sad tale Rich, so that's now FOUR rifles I know of.

 

I'd love to know how they do the air tubes up so tight (I obviously know why). I know Kev has had to send a tube / reg back and have the factory separate it, but there are only so many times he can call in that favour.

 

Fingers crossed I can get the couple I have lined up to bits. At least with my checker, I should be able to see what's going on in the reg.

Not too sure if it'd work, but a trick I've used in the past on m/cycles with success is to wrap a towel round the offending part, then pour boiling water onto the towel, give it a few seconds, remove the towel (carefully) and the thread/part will often come undone/off

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Must have been a very delicate motorcycle, I used to use a blow torch.

 

Good idea though.

 

I already use a piece of leather to get more grip, that and the wooden jaws of a workmate.

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Must have been a very delicate motorcycle, I used to use a blow torch.

 

Good idea though.

 

I already use a piece of leather to get more grip, that and the wooden jaws of a workmate.

Sounds like Holly has been giving you tips regarding the blowtorch... :)

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I remember I worked out once, looking at the damage to the C-spanner holes in my EV2, what torque had to have been used to get the tube undone. Yes I know, geeky maybe, but these things interest me.

 

It came out to be something like 600 NM, that is six hundred newton metres. For those who don't have a feel for this, imagine a spanner a metre long, and you heave the best part of your body weight on the end, it's in that region. Remember that the pins that go into the end plug or reg housing are approx. 3mm diameter so you are very close to shearing those pins off.

 

The torque wrench that does up the wheel nuts on my car is set to 80 NM, by comparison. And I don't want them falling off.

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Good thinking neil . i used the gas ring on the cooker . but not when the wife was about ??? HOLLY

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I remember I worked out once, looking at the damage to the C-spanner holes in my EV2, what torque had to have been used to get the tube undone. Yes I know, geeky maybe, but these things interest me.

 

It came out to be something like 600 NM, that is six hundred newton metres. For those who don't have a feel for this, imagine a spanner a metre long, and you heave the best part of your body weight on the end, it's in that region. Remember that the pins that go into the end plug or reg housing are approx. 3mm diameter so you are very close to shearing those pins off.

 

The torque wrench that does up the wheel nuts on my car is set to 80 NM, by comparison. And I don't want them falling off.

 

That is just mental, why on earth would they tighten the tubes by that much?

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errr probably just cos they can colin ??? HOLLY

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errr probably just cos they can colin ??? HOLLY

 

Maybe, but to be putting that amount of stress onto a component that doesn't need it is just retarded.

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Exactly. The thread length is enough to handle the axial load, the pipe is thick enough to take the hoop stress from the radial load, the job of the O ring is to make the seal. Once the O ring is nipped up enough to make the seal and not to blow out under load, any more torque is unnecessary, in engineering terms. All it does is to focus the thread area as the weak point.

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Holly, when putting new main bearings in Triumph engine, an oven is the best way to get the casings to expand enough.... just keep all the windows open.

 

Rich, when I used to work on Pro-T's and EV's, I only ever did the reg or air tube up hand tight. I couldn't tighten them any more, as I only used my hands :-)

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Exactly. The thread length is enough to handle the axial load, the pipe is thick enough to take the hoop stress from the radial load, the job of the O ring is to make the seal. Once the O ring is nipped up enough to make the seal and not to blow out under load, any more torque is unnecessary, in engineering terms. All it does is to focus the thread area as the weak point.

 

I guess it goes to prove the point that AA have wanted to bring in AT for a long while, over-tightening the tube was just their earlier crude version of it... :)

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I remember I worked out once, looking at the damage to the C-spanner holes in my EV2, what torque had to have been used to get the tube undone. Yes I know, geeky maybe, but these things interest me.

 

It came out to be something like 600 NM, that is six hundred newton metres. For those who don't have a feel for this, imagine a spanner a metre long, and you heave the best part of your body weight on the end, it's in that region. Remember that the pins that go into the end plug or reg housing are approx. 3mm diameter so you are very close to shearing those pins off.

 

The torque wrench that does up the wheel nuts on my car is set to 80 NM, by comparison. And I don't want them falling off.

 

That is just mental, why on earth would they tighten the tubes by that much?

 

Cos they're dicks

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Can you imagine the outcry if car manufacturers did their wheel nuts up so tight, you had no choice but to go back to their franchised dealers for tyres, it's pretty much the same... :)

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