Jump to content

AirGunForum uses cookies. Read the Privacy Policy for more info. To remove this message, please click the button to the right:    I accept the use of cookies

Photo

A Question Of HFT ?


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1 holly

holly

    holly

  • Member
  • 24,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Wight
  • Interests:FT . archery . walking
  • Country:england
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:East london

Posted 30 December 2004 - 05:42 PM

I am almost ready to have a go at HFT . another couple of weeks should see me up and running , outfit completed . but a number of points need clearing up ? i know most of the rules , at least i think i do as they don't seem to be the same all over the country . 1/ chrono , is it with the pellet you use ? 2/ range finding , is using the reticle allowed IE bracketing ? 3/ is a shooting glove allowed ? if not is any sort of glove allowed ? 4/ how much time per lane per person ? 5/ is it two targets per lane or more or less ? thanks . HOLLY thumb.gif Myself and the mighty dopper will be having a go at this and he says that because of his dodgy hip he will take most of the shots standing ?

#2 Guest_sportsmatch_*

Guest_sportsmatch_*
  • Guest

Posted 30 December 2004 - 06:27 PM

The answers Holly are :
1 The chrono is done with the pellet you use.
2 Bracketing is allowed thats why they use mildot scopes but is going to be more difficult with a changing of killzones sizes so I,ve been told.
3 You are allowed target gloves
4 There is no time limit at present
5 There is 2 targets per lane now or 1 depending on space of land etc
Gary
PS theres a shot at quarry rifles on the 8 th of Jan 2005

Edited by sportsmatch, 30 December 2004 - 06:29 PM.


#3 sparky

sparky

    FAC Forum Leader

  • Moderator
  • 531 posts
  • Location:Pontypool South Wales
  • Interests:Airguns & Football
  • Country:UK
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:Pontypool, South Wales

Posted 30 December 2004 - 07:08 PM

Gary has answered most of the questions and of course this is going on the UKAHFT rules.

Only thing is next year in the comps it will be 1 target 1 peg and there may well be unofficial time limits brought in (i.e. if a marshal thinks you are taking to long and holding other shooters up)

UKAHFT Rules

Pete

#4 Guest_sportsmatch_*

Guest_sportsmatch_*
  • Guest

Posted 30 December 2004 - 07:27 PM

Some shooters are to be given a prod to make sure they've not fallen asleep biggrin.gif
Wonder who'll get the first prod wink.gif

#5 holly

holly

    holly

  • Member
  • 24,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Wight
  • Interests:FT . archery . walking
  • Country:england
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:East london

Posted 30 December 2004 - 08:04 PM

cheers gents . good of you to answer , it is too far for me to come i am afraid .quarry rifles that is . why not double up the GP there with an HFT shoot then i can get double my shooting time and you can get double your money ? seems like a good idea to me how about you ? HOLLY thumb.gif PS why do they have to have different size kill zones ? apart from the 40mil full size and the mini kill 1 inch ?

#6 1 0f 5

1 0f 5

    Now 1 0f 4

  • Member,
  • 5,132 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorks
  • Country:England
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:West Yorkshire

Posted 30 December 2004 - 08:31 PM

I believe that by allowing any size kill zone (within reason) it deliberately makes it harder to bracket for distance thus relying more on the Mk1 eyeball.

#7 sparky

sparky

    FAC Forum Leader

  • Moderator
  • 531 posts
  • Location:Pontypool South Wales
  • Interests:Airguns & Football
  • Country:UK
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:Pontypool, South Wales

Posted 30 December 2004 - 08:33 PM

Hi Holly

1 of 5 is correct but main thing for the different size kill zones is some clubs have old targets/homemade that could be 35mm,38mm & 45mm ect, so we just said any size can be used instead of just saying 25mm & 40mm before someone complains cool.gif But we do have some inserts to go in the killzones for fun also.

No plans for joint comps as of yet but you never know in the future.

Pete

Edited by sparky, 30 December 2004 - 08:33 PM.


#8 Guest_Dave_*

Guest_Dave_*
  • Guest

Posted 30 December 2004 - 08:37 PM

QUOTE (sportsmatch @ Thu Dec 30 2004, 19:27)
Wonder who'll get the first prod wink.gif


Could be one of the 'big nobs' of HFT from what I hear wink.gif

#9 holly

holly

    holly

  • Member
  • 24,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Wight
  • Interests:FT . archery . walking
  • Country:england
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:East london

Posted 30 December 2004 - 09:21 PM

Well thats interesting and changes my plans a bit . if they are gonna have all sorts of sizes of kill zones i will have to get the flatest flying pellet i can get and wind it up as far as is legal all bar 10 or 15 feet per second ? i have some of my old FT pellets IE long range gold at i believe 7.1 grain that would if i remember right allow 850 FT per sec ? what does every body else use unsure.gif HOLLY thumb.gif

#10 1 0f 5

1 0f 5

    Now 1 0f 4

  • Member,
  • 5,132 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorks
  • Country:England
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:West Yorkshire

Posted 30 December 2004 - 09:44 PM

LRG are quoted on this frums listing as 7.6 grain.
Most folk appear to be using JSB / Daystate or Fields from what I've seen.

#11 sparky

sparky

    FAC Forum Leader

  • Moderator
  • 531 posts
  • Location:Pontypool South Wales
  • Interests:Airguns & Football
  • Country:UK
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:Pontypool, South Wales

Posted 30 December 2004 - 10:09 PM

Still 25mm min 45mm max though for comps so don't have to worry about it unless you are a really bad shot biggrin.gif )
I run my target guns at 775fps(8.4=11.2ftlb) and we use 10mm targets up the club up to 35yards for practice.

Pete

#12 holly

holly

    holly

  • Member
  • 24,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Wight
  • Interests:FT . archery . walking
  • Country:england
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:East london

Posted 31 December 2004 - 12:50 AM

Right i stand corrected . 7.6 grain ? can anybody remember the formular for working out power ? and if so what would be the max speed minus 15 ft per sec for safety that i could run it up to ? might as well use them up . good pellet very accurate but take to much wind past 45 yards . so that should not be a problem . HOLLY thumb.gif PS well sparky somebody has to grasp the nettle of bringing HFT and FT together why not the welsh and this coming year ? i was talking to the lads at bisley and they said that there is good sponsership money in running an HFT event ? so this could give quarry rifles some real money if they bring the two together .

#13 Guest_GunTrader_*

Guest_GunTrader_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 01:11 AM

Velocity x velocity x pellet weight in grains divided by 450240 = energy in ft.lbs.

So if the Bisley LRG weighs 7.6gns then you could have your rifle running at 835fps which would give you approximately 11.75 ft.lbs of muzzle energy.

Regards,
GT

#14 Guest_snapshot_*

Guest_snapshot_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 07:35 AM

Holly, if you want a gentle introduction to HFT come up to Lea Valley on the 22nd for our monthly club hunter round. It's only 10 targets, 20 shots so not too demanding. First visit to the club is free so it'll only cost a pound for the competition itself. You need to register by 10:30 for 11:00 kickoff. Details at http://www.lvagc.com/ .

Jonathan


#15 Guest_snapshot_*

Guest_snapshot_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 07:36 AM

QUOTE (sportsmatch @ Thu Dec 30 2004, 19:27)
Some shooters are to be given a prod to make sure they've not fallen asleep biggrin.gif
Wonder who'll get the first prod wink.gif

Someone else called Gary, probably.

#16 holly

holly

    holly

  • Member
  • 24,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Wight
  • Interests:FT . archery . walking
  • Country:england
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:East london

Posted 31 December 2004 - 09:14 AM

Cheers guntrader ,835 should get the little beggars moving out a bit ? i think my short action RN will wind up to that got a corrick reg in it . Thanks jonathan i was planning to come over to lea valley for my first event to put my toe into the water so to speak ? so i will try my best to get there for your first date of the year . why are there so few targets . big queues . or is it just an introduction ? i started at lea valley in 1989 when mark cammocio was club champ look like it's come around full circle ?HOLLY thumb.gif

#17 Guest_SammoB_*

Guest_SammoB_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 09:15 AM

Don't forget Holly, that pretty much all of the venues for HFT aren't insured for FAC.

Just because the UKAHFT chrono using the pellet you're currently using isn't a good reason to wind your rifle up so that it's no longer legal. I'm sure you're aware that the law is that your rifle should not be capable of producing more than 12 fpe with ANY projectile.

Is it really worth potentially bringing the sport into disrepute to gain such a small advantage?

The difference between FT and HFT is that HFT is much more of a relaxed and fun environment - it's not as competitive as FT. The majority of HFT shooters go out and shoot because they enjoy shooting if they get a good score - great, if they get a rubbish score - nobody cares. Go out roll about in the mud and have a good time mate, you'll feel much better for it.

ATB
Bri

#18 holly

holly

    holly

  • Member
  • 24,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Wight
  • Interests:FT . archery . walking
  • Country:england
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:East london

Posted 31 December 2004 - 04:04 PM

I hear what you say sammo, but if you are right and you are not then just about everybody airgun shooter in the country is in danger of being arrested ? george grim the EX chaiman of the BFTA went to the police in our area and asked for clarification of the power rulers iE what weight was the pellet to be that the rifle would be tested with ? they said they could not say that , but it was reasonable to suppose that it would be with the pellet that was being used at the time ? if you KNOW of a case where it was not then obviously the BFTA and UKHFT will have to bring in new rules IE get hold of the heaviest pellet they can find and test with that ALL rifles at any comps BEFORE it goes on to the course . now i am in favour of this myself because i started shooting with the biguns IE in 177 10.06 was average and it needs a lot more skill to shoot this heavy pellets than your 8.4s so bring it on i say . but personally i think you are just scaremongering ? no tested with the pellet of use at events is i believe fair do's . what do the rest think ? doh.gif

Edited by holly, 31 December 2004 - 04:06 PM.


#19 Guest_TiggerC_*

Guest_TiggerC_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 04:56 PM

Holly, as far as I know, all new rifles are tested and set for power by the manufacturers using the most efficient pellet. For example, new TX's are set up using Air Arms pellets. If they were set up using Premiers at 815fps, they would be over the limit with the more efficient Air Arms pellets.
I see your point though, because guns are checked at competitions with the shooter supplied pellets.
However, as far as I know, the police can check your rifle using a selection of pellets.
So I'm not sure, never having been checked by the plod, but I'd rather be on the safe side. Happy New Year to you smile.gif
Chris.

#20 Guest_SammoB_*

Guest_SammoB_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 05:38 PM

The law is the law - not some police officers interpretation of it and it is quite clear in it's definition of a firearm.

If the BFTA are advising otherwise they're putting their members at risk!

Yes I do know of a case where the police used a selection of pellets some of which caused the rifle to go over the 12 foot pound limit. I wasn't personally involved in the case but Keef from XB&M was called as an expert witness in that case I'm sure he'll tell you the same. Fortunately the police bungled the investigation and lost the evidence otherwise some poor lad could have been looking at the wrong end of a 5 year stretch.

Most police forces use a selection of pellets, ranging from light to heavy pellets and they also test the pellet being used at the time. This isn't hearsay - this is fact and it's also the LAW!

You can call it scaremongering if you like - Personally I call it taking note of the law. Ignore it at your own peril mate - ignorance is no defence btw.

Lets face it - it's very unlikely that plod are going to raid an event and start chrono'ing everyone's rifle. But what do you think might happen if for arguements sake an unfortunate accident happened and a rifle was discharged causing serious injury. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the gun in question was taken away and tested in that case would you?

But my main point is it's not a particularly responsible thing to encourage on an open forum and it does nothing but bring the sport into disrepute - and for what?


#21 Guest_NeilM_*

Guest_NeilM_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:13 PM

Sammo,
reading your posts it looks like you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Holly is talking about setting up his gun, so that it shoots at about 11.75 ft lb with a 7.6 grain pellet.

I used to have a Pro-T set up for Premiers, at 11.5 ft lbs they were going just over 800fps. AA/Daystate/JSB's doing the same velocity would be over 12 ft lb. I was not committing any offence, and when tested the heavier pellets had a lower velocity which was still legal.

Nothing wrong with tuning your rifle to your chosen ammunition.

Neil

#22 Guest_SammoB_*

Guest_SammoB_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:32 PM

I know it sounds like I'm being pedantic here, but I haven't got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Holly is talking about tuning his gun to about 11.77 fpe with a light pellet. If when he puts through a Bisley Magnum it still stays below 12 foot pound, I don't have a problem.

But.. it almost certainly won't be.

Neil, you're making the assumption that if you use a heavier pellet, all that will change is the MV - i.e. it will decrease accordingly and still leave the rifle within 12 foot pound.

Sadly this just isn't the case. Do the tests yourself mate.

My Daystate Mk3 when shooting JSB's kicks out about 11.3 fpe, but if I put a bisley magnum through it the velocity doesn't drop in line with the increase in pellet weight and it kicks out 11.7 fpe.

If I decided to squeeze every last ounce of power out of my rifle with my usual pellet - i.e. tuned it to 11.7 fpe with JSB's - Bis Mags would certainly put it over the 12 fpe limit and I would be looking at a mandatory 5 year prison sentence if caught.

My point is and always has been - Is it worth the risk for such a small advantage?

If you look on the BFTA forum on here - you only have to look 6 posts down to see a post on this very subject, so this is something that the BFTA are aware of. I'm not sure what advise they're giving out, but if it's to tune your rifle to 11.75 fpe with your normal pellet then I think they should serioiusly reconsider that advice!

I'm starting to sound like an old whinging git now, so I'll shut up.

Happy New Year all
Bri

#23 Guest_Martz_*

Guest_Martz_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:42 PM

Sound advice Bri, i got quite a shock when i tried bisley magnums in my Harrier? it spat them out a shade over 13ft lbs? the rifle was bought set up for AA fields (11.8ftlbs)?

The rifle was promtly de-tuned to 11.5 with Bis mags? giving a shade over 11 with the
daystates i had started to use? I think i had to put about four clicks on at 55yards ? so the difference is negligable ?

Set them safe.

Mart.

#24 sparky

sparky

    FAC Forum Leader

  • Moderator
  • 531 posts
  • Location:Pontypool South Wales
  • Interests:Airguns & Football
  • Country:UK
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:Pontypool, South Wales

Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:57 PM

I find my gun doing 11.2(775fps) with 8.4 pellets performs slighty better than when it was doing 800fps.

For one uses less air at its peak and also found when shooting at paper it now punches a nice hole were as before it rips the paper, so seems to me the pellet is more stable at the lesser power? And none of my impact points have altered out to 45.

Pete

PS Happy New Year to all off out now baaa.gif

Edited by sparky, 31 December 2004 - 07:00 PM.


#25 Guest_dwb_*

Guest_dwb_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 08:00 PM

I started a post in August The government and pellet

The government is talking about having a set pellet for chronograph

as it is now every police force as its own interpretation ,
I have talk to the police about this , one answer I got was , that they would use 3 different pellets ,heavy, medium, light, if it was over with any pellets ,then it was a FAC, end of story

DWBaines

#26 Guest_snapshot_*

Guest_snapshot_*
  • Guest

Posted 31 December 2004 - 08:35 PM

QUOTE (holly @ Fri Dec 31 2004, 09:14)
Thanks jonathan i was planning to come over to lea valley for my first event to put my toe into the water so to speak ? so i will try my best to get there for your first date of the year . why are there so few targets . big queues . or is it just an introduction ?

There's only one arena available for the monthly comps so space is limited, it has to be completely set up that morning and no-one wants to take all day over it. :-)

Look for the short, bald, bearded bloke with an MFR and say hello.

Jonathan


#27 holly

holly

    holly

  • Member
  • 24,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Wight
  • Interests:FT . archery . walking
  • Country:england
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:East london

Posted 31 December 2004 - 09:24 PM

Nah sorry sammo and david what you are saying sounds good BUT what happens when it is a hot day you leave your gun on the grass the sun comes around and gets on it . it heats up the air inside expands the power goes up and you are illegal over the chrono david ? the police take your rifle sammo for forensic testing . you have set it up to be legal but it was cold so you had to turn it up to maintain zero . it has central heating in the lab , very hot the gun goes over by two feet per second you are a crimminal sammo ? but i did not know you say ? send him down says the judge ? come on lads get real ? most of the lads who shoot set there rifles at about 15 to 20 feer per second below the limit IE 8.4s at between 775 and 785 depending on the weather and with prems like i use at between 800 and 810 . and what perhaps you don't know is that water or oil in the barrel will increase the pressure and cause the rifle to go over the top ? spring guns . whayhay a small drop of oil gets past the piston , detonates and thats the spring gunner on his way ? ta ta . plus the police won't change what they have at the moment cos they like it like that . get you this way get you that ? you want to change it , good go to the orgs get a standard pellet for testing get a reliable chrono IE not the ones you have at the moment and away you go . HOLLY thumb.gif

#28 holly

holly

    holly

  • Member
  • 24,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Wight
  • Interests:FT . archery . walking
  • Country:england
  • Region OR County OR State of residence:East london

Posted 31 December 2004 - 09:34 PM

Cheers jonathan i will look forward to it . my self and an old chap who thinks he can shoot called dopper will i hope be down to see you this month ? if we do not hit much please don't laugh to loud as we are sensitive souls ? what is an MFR ? you can recognise us by the fact that i am a big fat s-d and dopper has a very nice pair of crutches ? in silver . HOLLY thumb.gif PS and our rifles will be running well under the limit . doh.gif

#29 Guest_snapshot_*

Guest_snapshot_*
  • Guest

Posted 01 January 2005 - 07:33 AM

QUOTE (holly @ Fri Dec 31 2004, 21:34)
what is an MFR ? you can recognise us by the fact that i am a big fat s-d and dopper has a very nice pair of crutches ? in silver .

An MFR is an air rifle made by Theoben, m'lud.

Being larger than average is hardly a distinguishing feature in this sport, is it? LV is home to Mark 'Bones' Lufkin who is as large as a very large thing with added large bits. Irritatingly he's also an extremely good shot.

Jonathan


#30 Guest_NeilM_*

Guest_NeilM_*
  • Guest

Posted 01 January 2005 - 09:20 AM

Snapshot, you WILL know Holly and the Dopper when you see them wow.gif




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users