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New Air Arms FT


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#1 Guest_MacGator_*

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Posted 16 December 2001 - 07:08 AM

Oh Look, I did the first ever FT related post on this new board, now I will be the envy of all ;)  err do we need another board to post on??


Anyway, who knows what about the new airarms FT? I hear all sorts or rumours.

Mac

#2 Guest_Melvyn_*

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Posted 16 December 2001 - 08:07 AM

I'm here too , great . Heard nothing yet ,how are they going to better the Pro Target ? unless the fit a better stock

Melvyn

#3 Guest_Daz_*

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Posted 16 December 2001 - 09:41 AM

Terry Doe claims to know something about it, but apparently he's been ordered to keep stum..

But as you say, how are they going to better the Pro-Target..unless they take a leaf out of walther's book and make a full adjustable stock..

We'll have to watch the mags..

All the best

Daz

#4 Guest_peterh_*

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Posted 16 December 2001 - 04:02 PM

Since my Pro Target isn't as accurate as my Air Arms 100, or as the Walther LG300FT I have here, I know of something that could be improved.

One question: what options for adjustability could you think of that you couldn't cater for yourself?

peter

#5 Guest_FGYT_*

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Posted 16 December 2001 - 09:24 PM

mamc  you not been to the club  (bizzers) recently   parently its been see up there  
Duncan  :p

#6 Guest_MacGator_*

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Posted 16 December 2001 - 10:26 PM

Quote (FGYT @ Dec. 15 2001,9:24)
mamc  you not been to the club  (bizzers) recently   parently its been see up there  
Duncan  :p

Hi Duncan,

Was there Wednesday, Friday and all morning today, no sign of it, but Ken Turner was not there either.

Mac

#7 Guest_Daz_*

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Posted 16 December 2001 - 10:29 PM

Quote (peterh @ Dec. 15 2001,4:02)
One question: what options for adjustability could you think of that you couldn't cater for yourself?

peter

Some people don't want to have to mess about altering stocks with woodworking tools (or gettting someone else to do it) etc etc, so the Walther offers an easier alternative.

At the end of the day, it's a feature and a useful one.One I'd certainly consider if buying another FT setup

All the best

Daz

#8 Guest_PhilA_*

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Posted 17 December 2001 - 10:05 AM

Quote (peterh @ Dec. 16 2001,16:02)
One question: what options for adjustability could you think of that you couldn't cater for yourself?

peter

To be able to angle the pistol grip and trigger block slightly.

To 'bend' the section of the stock between the pistol grip and the butt (Sorry, don't know the correct term for it.)

To angle and move forwards/backwards as well as raise/lower the cheek piece.

To have a movable 'grip' on the fore end of the stock which is molded to fit the hand as the pistol grip is.  This could also have a hook on the front or rear of the grip to position against the knee for sitting shots.

Weights that can be easily added or removed at different points of the gun.

I know that all these can be added to a custom made wooden stock, but it looses it's adjustability.

One thing I would like to see is a true left handed gun that didn't cost more than the R/H version.  ;)

#9 Guest_peterh_*

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Posted 17 December 2001 - 05:55 PM

GROUND CONTROL TO MAJOR TOM?

Sorry guys, but I just can't help thinking that, if we need to alter the angle of the pistol grip/trigger group, that's a clear sign that we just bleeeedin' 'ell need to learn to shoot! (in case you ask, that includes me).

Ever seen a truely good shot's trigger control? They hardly even TOUCH the pistol grip, let alone GRIP it! On days when I feel I can really hit anything that I point my gun at, the pistol grip functions as an orientation device, not as something I hold the gun with, so it's really completely irrelevant whether it's at 90 or 85 degrees.

The GOOD shots, like Nick Jenkinson, can clear courses with an S400 (Nick Jenkinson recently did so with precisely that gun, and the only adaptations were a better trigger and a kitchen sink forestock adaptation, no fancy adjustable bits on it!). The funny bit is that I *know* that Nick doesn't consciously realise what he does with the pistol grip -- it's just second nature to him to touch it, but not "grip" it.

Come on, boys. I have a few high tech guns here, including a Walther LG300 Dommie, and none of them beats the low-tech, hardly-adjustable Custom Stock'ed Air Arms 100 on standers, kneelers and benched shots!
The Daystate and the Walther come close -- but that's not because they're more adjustable, it's just because they're so accurate.
Isn't it about time that we face that some of these wonderful options are merely marketing tricks, or at best attempts at masking our sloppy technique, rather than improvements that actually make a gun shoot more accurately?

Do not, and I mean NOT, read this as an attempt to make it seem as if my technique is better than yours. When I sort my shooting (hold, trigger technique, follow-through) out properly, the AA100 will hit anything I point it at, but I know that at times I fail to do so. That's MY fault, NOT the gun's!
I am not a good shot (yet) -- in fact, I'm able to get rostrum places in B-class, but that's it. But sometimes, I have these days that I'm cooking on gas, and I'm starting to figure out what I'm doing right when I am. My best matches were my first match with the HW97 (that was my first match ever), my first three matches with the Pro Target (the first one being 5 days after I got it!), and my second match with the Air Arms 100. And as of today, when I get into the garden to practice kneeling and standing shots, I get better results with the Air Arms 100 than with either the Pro Target, the CR-X or the Walther Dommie.

I get the feeling that if we get a gun that masks our own mistakes, we are in fact masking our own mistakes rather than curing them. And as for me, some mistake curing is the order of the day.
Don't get me wrong, the Pro Target is a good gun, and the Walther Dommie is an excellent gun. But the AA100 is more accurate. And I'm really just a decent B-grade shooter.

I think that goes for most of us. So... why not just -covered in gore- settle with what we have now, then invest in 50 tins of pellets and practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, ad infinitum? I think that is REALLY the best investment we could make.

peter[B]

#10 Guest_MacGator_*

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Posted 17 December 2001 - 06:29 PM

Evening Peter,

I agree with everything you say, but there are some things you have not considered.

The most important of which is that we are all different shapes and sizes. I am a 6'4" Scotsman who finds that triggers are usually too close to the pistol grip and butt pads are too close to the pistol grip as well (damn that pistol grip, it's all it's fault).

With the Walther, I am comfortable, nothing more, just comfortble. I have moved the pistol grip back towards the butt and moved the MEC butt pad back as far as it can go. I keep the pistol grip verticle, but rotate it anti clockwise about 10 degrees if you look at the gun from above and this I find suits me. Then there is the fact that I have a big head (in more ways than one I have been told), I have shifted the cheek peice away from my face (towards the right as I hold the gun). and this helps me to keep my head straighter when shooting.

Golf clubs come in different sizes, why not guns.

But after saying this, I bet that Nick Jenkinson etc could outshoot me with my gun in my setup, so you are right and I will practice, practice practice etc an enjoy every minute of it.

Mac

#11 Guest_Simon_*

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Posted 17 December 2001 - 07:44 PM

Quote (PhilA @ Dec. 17 2001,10:05)
To be able to angle the pistol grip and trigger block slightly.

To 'bend' the section of the stock between the pistol grip and the butt (Sorry, don't know the correct term for it.)

To angle and move forwards/backwards as well as raise/lower the cheek piece.

To have a movable 'grip' on the fore end of the stock which is molded to fit the hand as the pistol grip is.  This could also have a hook on the front or rear of the grip to position against the knee for sitting shots.

Weights that can be easily added or removed at different points of the gun.

I know that all these can be added to a custom made wooden stock, but it looses it's adjustability.

One thing I would like to see is a true left handed gun that didn't cost more than the R/H version.  ;)

Hi Phil,
All of those things you require from a rifle are (or will be) catered for with the Dominator. (I'm sure it's only motorbike afficionados that keep calling it a "Dommie" :p ) You'd have to phone Tom Dowling to find out when the left handed versions are coming into the country though.

I had a chat with Bill Saunders at Air Arms last week he described some of the things that are going to be a part of their new top-of-the-line rifle. I'll be very interested to see it when it comes out.

See ya,
Simon

#12 Guest_Simon_*

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Posted 17 December 2001 - 07:55 PM

Quote (peterh @ Dec. 17 2001,17:55)
GROUND CONTROL TO MAJOR TOM?

Sorry guys, but I just can't help thinking that, if we need to alter the angle of the pistol grip/trigger group, that's a clear sign that we just bleeeedin' 'ell need to learn to shoot! (in case you ask, that includes me).

Come on, boys. I have a few high tech guns here, including a Walther LG300 Dommie, and none of them beats the low-tech, hardly-adjustable Custom Stock'ed Air Arms 100 on standers, kneelers and benched shots!
The Daystate and the Walther come close -- but that's not because they're more adjustable, it's just because they're so accurate.

Don't get me wrong, the Pro Target is a good gun, and the Walther Dommie is an excellent gun. But the AA100 is more accurate. And I'm really just a decent B-grade shooter.

Hi Pete,
Nice to see you on here too. At least you'll be able to put your point of view across without getting pillioried for it on here.

Just a couple of points...
Firstly, Most of what you said made perfect sense and I wholeheartedly agree with you... BUT! (and it's a big but)... anything that helps us to hit the target doesn't necessarily detract from the sport... Just because these rifles are all-singing and all-dancing means that it's easier to extract the most from a rifle and shooter's potential.

Secondly. You shoot left-handed and I believe your AA100 has a left handed stock on it. Does the Walther you have for test have a right-hand stock on it or a left-hand one?

If as I suspect it's the former, then I don't think that making a comparison about accuracy is justified unless you put both rifles in clamps and fired them at a target with almost no input from your good self. I would assume that you took both rifles and shot them from the usual FT positions to gauge their respective accuracy potentials. If, however, the Dominator has a right-hand stock on it and you shoot 't other way around, how can you shoot it as well as you would with your AA 100?

If you have a left-handed Dominator then you have my sincere apologies for jumping to conclusions. :p

See ya,
Simon

#13 Guest_Daz_*

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Posted 17 December 2001 - 09:46 PM

Quote
GROUND CONTROL TO MAJOR TOM?

Don't get me wrong, the Pro Target is a good gun, and the Walther Dommie is an excellent gun. But the AA100 is more accurate.

peter[B]

I suppose next you'll be telling us that there's no performance difference between a Ferrari 348, an Aston Martin Vanquish and a Ford Capri (left hand drive, of course).. ;)

I welcome your input, Peter, but try to exercise a bit of humility for the rest of us mere mortals who need the extra gadgets to shoot better.. :(

All the best

Daz



#14 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 18 December 2001 - 12:46 PM

Hi Pete,
Nice to see you on here too. At least you'll be able to put your point of view across without getting pillioried for it on here.




I suppose next you'll be telling us that there's no performance difference between a Ferrari 348, an Aston Martin Vanquish and a Ford Capri (left hand drive, of course)


pete consider yourself pillioried  :D

#15 Guest_peterh_*

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Posted 18 December 2001 - 04:58 PM

Oh, great. Now I've gotta find out what pillioried means. I could do without that, you know?

#16 Guest_peterh_*

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Posted 18 December 2001 - 05:07 PM

Quote (Daz @ Dec. 17 2001,21:46)
I suppose next you'll be telling us that there's no performance difference between a Ferrari 348, an Aston Martin Vanquish and a Ford Capri (left hand drive, of course).. ;)

Daz, calling the AA Shamal  or 100 a Ford Capri just because you were fed up with it is pushing it -- a bit. We ARE talking about the PCP chassis that has won more field target matches than any other gun, mind you -- and, after all these years, is still doing so.

(let me rub it in a bit)

It's simply that, an excellently accurate gun. Many people who sold one now regret doing so (ask Simon about it).

My point is that I severely doubt that all the bells and whistles will actually make you shoot more accurate in any other way than acting as a placebo.
One of my peeves on the AA100 is that it has a very oldfashioned loading system -- but the point is immediately cancelled out by the fact that this gun shoots more accurate than any of the modern-loading-system guns I have around.

peter

#17 Guest_MacGator_*

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Posted 18 December 2001 - 05:23 PM

Quote (peterh @ Dec. 18 2001,16:58)
Oh, great. Now I've gotta find out what pillioried means. I could do without that, you know?

Peter,

I think it has something to do with riding on the back seat of a motorcycle  :D  :D

mac

#18 Guest_Simon_*

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Posted 18 December 2001 - 06:44 PM

Quote (peterh @ Dec. 18 2001,17:07)
It's simply that, an excellently accurate gun. Many people who sold one now regret doing so (ask Simon about it).

peter

Amen to that Peter!

You're absolutely right. I used to have an Air Arms Shamal (one of the later ones) and I sorely regret ever selling it. I suppose the main reason I regret it is simply because it was the first rifle I used to shoot a national level competition with and although I shot like a plonker, it gave me an excellent grounding in the delights of competitive shooting... That gun gave me 3rd place overall in 'B' Grade at regional level after only one season too.

I have found that many of the older PCP's shoot as well if not better than some newer ones. To illustrate the point, I have a 14 year old Daystate Huntsman in a CS800 stock that still looks as good as the day it emerged from the factory and still prints excellent groups that I'd be happy with if I'd shot 'em with my Walther... It's certainly one rifle that I don't think I'll be parting with.

By the way Pete, "pilloried" means "to be ridiculed publicly" according to the Collins English Dictionary.  :f

See ya,
Simon

#19 Guest_Daz_*

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Posted 18 December 2001 - 07:20 PM

Smashing..I had a AA SM100 and was heartily glad to see the back of it..

Horses For Courses

All the best

Daz

#20 Guest_Rickr10_*

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Posted 18 December 2001 - 07:21 PM

Low-tech, hardly-adjustable Custom Stock'ed.

Peter,

I didn't charge you enough for that stock.

The reason guns like the Walther, Dominator etc are going to sell is because of the twiddley bits. Why have something  un-adjustable when you can everything adjustable.

Shooting sports of all types produce good shots, the only thing that separates them from the ones like myself who turn up to have a day out and clap the winner is what’s between the ears.

Any coach will tell you that 5% is ability, 5% is equipment and 90% is the mental attitude of the shooter. That’s why the Nicks, Dave Baines, Andy Calpins of this world shoot so well.

The rest of use makes do with gear that looks good and we enjoy owning it.

Rick

#21 Guest_PhilA_*

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Posted 19 December 2001 - 01:28 PM

Quote (peterh @ Dec. 17 2001,17:55)
GROUND CONTROL TO MAJOR TOM?

Sorry guys, but I just can't help thinking that, if we need to alter the angle of the pistol grip/trigger group, that's a clear sign that we just bleeeedin' 'ell need to learn to shoot! (in case you ask, that includes me).

Ever seen a truely good shot's trigger control? They hardly even TOUCH the pistol grip, let alone GRIP it! On days when I feel I can really hit anything that I point my gun at, the pistol grip functions as an orientation device, not as something I hold the gun with, so it's really completely irrelevant whether it's at 90 or 85 degrees.

Come on, boys. I have a few high tech guns here, including a Walther LG300 Dommie, and none of them beats the low-tech, hardly-adjustable Custom Stock'ed Air Arms 100 on standers, kneelers and benched shots!
The Daystate and the Walther come close -- but that's not because they're more adjustable, it's just because they're so accurate.
Isn't it about time that we face that some of these wonderful options are merely marketing tricks, or at best attempts at masking our sloppy technique, rather than improvements that actually make a gun shoot more accurately?


peter[B]

Peter,
I know what you're saying and the part of me that wants just to take part and enjoy it agrees with you 100%  Hell, I shoot a springer!! ;) The part of me that wants to win is telling me that having a stock that fits my body shape perfectly will help me shoot better.  

I think that it's partly about being comfortable.  If I try and get into the proper sitting position wearing a pair of tight jeans, it hurts my dangly bits.  If however I wear loose trousers, I find it comfy.  

Hourses for courses as they say.  Although after defending the Walther Domminator et all, I'm going to have to stop calling Rapids ugly. ;)

All the best
Phil

#22 Jon

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Posted 25 December 2001 - 02:28 AM

These are mass produced guns that you are on about here and cannot suit everyone out of the box, that is why they are adjustable, although designed for 10 metre rather than specifically FT.
Up to now people have purchased off the shelf aftermarket stocks and have learnt to live with their purchase.
I only know of two people that would make a stock to suit the individual customer that is not limited by design or pattern!
Wonder if that sidelever is out of alum as well as the stock? no names.

#23 Guest_MAGNUM_*

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Posted 07 January 2002 - 01:00 AM

Peter,
Adjustability of the gun to the individual is in my opinion of paramount importance. It is only by achieving a total balance with the handling and feel of the gun that is not true potential can be realized in the stress of competition.
The ability to group 10 or 20mmat 50m is academic. To say this is the only criteria upon which a FT rifle can be judged is misguided in my opinion.  A similar misconception occurs with motorcycles or cars where BHP output is the only assessment of performance. The real test of performance is the ability to effectively apply the power available via an excellent suspension,  chassis and breaking setup.

The introduction to the market by air arms or any other manufacturer of a FT gun which allows the majority of shooters to tune the gun to themselves can only broaden their market and render the older models  more redundant. Unless of course , by chance it fits ‘out of the box’.

#24 Guest_MadProf_*

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Posted 17 January 2002 - 11:26 AM

Yes I have, and so can you, its on the official air arms website (www.air-airms.co.uk).  

It is called the Pro Target 2 Evolution, and now comes with a side lever action, looks mighty sweet even for a prototype.

All the best.

#25 Jon

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Posted 18 January 2002 - 12:31 AM

Just as i suspected, very reminiscent of the Airstream guns and the lock up is the same idea as the no6 gun i made in 1994 and a lot more professional.




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