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BFTA shooting rules .


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#1 holly

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 09:24 PM

I wonder if anybody knows what is happening with the shooting rules . there was gonna be a commitee raised when i last heard to sort em out ??? HOLLY

#2 robF

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 10:59 PM

sort what out hols?

#3 holly

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 09:35 PM

Most of the rules that i knew when i started shooting FT have dissapeared . lost when barry longbottom left . i say to shooters , you cannot do that and they say where does it say that ??? HOLLY

Edited by holly, 03 June 2009 - 09:37 PM.


#4 robF

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 09:45 PM

well, depending on what it is, it should be covered in the rules on BFTA.net

#5 Scribe

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 06:33 AM

Full BFTA Shoot rules -

http://www.bfta.net/...n...8&Itemid=77

#6 Scooby

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:12 AM

Quite a few of have been talking about this recently, I think it's about time the rules were given a full revamp as there are still too many rules that are either ambiguos or plainly not followed. We also have a few procedures that aren't even in the rules.

It's would also be nice if we could have marshals who knew the rules & enforced these rules during competition.

The recent change into Chrono'ing your own groups guns has already seen the rules being broken with some partners allowing OTT rifles to continue in competition by entering a lower FPS onto the scorecard.

I can't really see the point in having rules that we don't follow, if the rules don't work then change or remove them

Edited by Scooby, 04 June 2009 - 07:15 AM.


#7 Scooby

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:33 AM

It's interesting reading the new updated rules regarding Chrono testing wow.gif

According to the new rules if any shot is over 12ft/lbs then that rifle has to be removed from the course

I can't understand why the same rules talks about "a max of three registering shots" though as you under the above addition you will only ever have one shot, it will either be under the limit in which case you continue to shoot or it will be OTT.

Interestingly the rule doesn't mention that the score won't count or the competitor will be DQ'd though, so they could complete the course with another rifle ohmy.gif

#8 Scribe

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:33 AM

You are not talking about the Rules not working, you are talking about the rules not being enforced, which is an entirely different subject.

You have obviously allowed this to happen as you yourself say that the crono rules are being flouted. If you saw this happen why did you not do something about it? If you did not see it happen then it is hearsay which in English law is not permitted as evidence.... smile.gif

#9 Scribe

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:36 AM

...and if the rules are ambiguous, again why have you not stated which rules they are....and done something about them? You can at anytime bring this to your Regions notice and get them to do something at the AGM. The Rules are revised/updated every year at the AGM....they were last updated less than a year ago!

Edited by Scribe, 04 June 2009 - 07:37 AM.


#10 Scribe

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE(Scooby @ Thu Jun 4 2009, 07:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's interesting reading the new updated rules regarding Chrono testing wow.gif

According to the new rules if any shot is over 12ft/lbs then that rifle has to be removed from the course

I can't understand why the same rules talks about "a max of three registering shots" though as you under the above addition you will only ever have one shot, it will either be under the limit in which case you continue to shoot or it will be OTT.

Interestingly the rule doesn't mention that the score won't count or the competitor will be DQ'd though, so they could complete the course with another rifle ohmy.gif

...also there are two limits, the legal limit and the BFTA limit which is below the legal limit. It also DOES state that the competitor can complete the course with another rifle to maintain the group...

...and in both cases, GP & non GP, it clearly states what happens about the scores...

Edited by Scribe, 04 June 2009 - 07:49 AM.


#11 Scooby

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE(Scribe @ Thu Jun 4 2009, 08:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are not talking about the Rules not working, you are talking about the rules not being enforced, which is an entirely different subject.

You have obviously allowed this to happen as you yourself say that the crono rules are being flouted. If you saw this happen why did you not do something about it? If you did not see it happen then it is hearsay which in English law is not permitted as evidence.... smile.gif


I've not allowed anything to happen, I didn't see the Chrono incident personally but it did happen, personally as an organiser I'd like to be informed if a new rules wasn't working or being flouted.

My responsibily when shooting a GP is to me & my group, we all ensure we are shooting safely & within the rules.

My responsibily doesn't extend to everyone else on the course whether I see them bending rules or not, if I do see someone from another group breaking a rules it will be pointed out to a marshal.

Unfortunately there are a lot of BFTA rules that are pretty much worthless as they are not being followed or enforced & that is the job of the BFTA, the marshals & the shooters. At the moment a group can decide to ingore any of the rules & nothing happens.




#12 Scooby

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:50 AM

QUOTE(Scribe @ Thu Jun 4 2009, 08:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...also there are two limits, the legal limit and the BFTA limit which is below the legal limit. It also DOES state that the competitor can complete the course with another rifle to maintain the group...


Yes I know thwere are two limits Alan, I actually do shoot the GP's, what I describe specifically covers a shot over 12ft/lbs, I wasn't refering to a shot above the BFTA limit but below the legal limit, that part of the rules is quite specific.

There is no mention of a competitor being allowed to complete the course with another rifle in a BFTA Grand Prix, this can only occur in a "Non Grand Prix series Competition"



#13 Scooby

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:56 AM

QUOTE(Scribe @ Thu Jun 4 2009, 08:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...and in both cases, GP & non GP, it clearly states what happens about the scores...


Are we reading the same rules Alan, I'm using the ones your link highlighted ?

These rules only specify that:


"On the issue of a second or subsequent YELLOW CARD during the season the score will be void"


Yellow cards are only issued with a velocity between 4fps & the legal limit, there is not mention at all of a score being void if the rifle is over the legal limit.

#14 Scribe

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 08:37 AM

The over the legal limit is covered in nthe previous paragrah. The Yellow card rule for the GP was brought in as a result of shooter pressure about long distance travelling and a genuine 'mistake'. The legal limit rules has always been that the gun must be removed.

Your statement -

Unfortunately there are a lot of BFTA rules that are pretty much worthless as they are not being followed or enforced & that is the job of the BFTA, the marshals & the shooters. At the moment a group can decide to ingore any of the rules & nothing happens.

Shows that you agree that it is ALL OUR responsibility to police our own sport. If we take no action when we see the rules being flouted, then what is the purpose of the organisation and rules?

Sorry to flog on a bit Scoobs, but we all have to police the sport or we will all suffer.... biggrin.gif

#15 Scooby

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 01:42 PM

QUOTE(Scribe @ Thu Jun 4 2009, 09:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The over the legal limit is covered in nthe previous paragrah. The Yellow card rule for the GP was brought in as a result of shooter pressure about long distance travelling and a genuine 'mistake'. The legal limit rules has always been that the gun must be removed.


No Alan the section I referred to is specifically talking about Grand Prix's, the previous paragraph is specifically about non GP shoots. As to the rule that the gun should be removed, I never said it wasn't always there. However if my rifle was over the legal limit when tested the current rule would not stop me finishing the course with a different rifle & having the score count. The rule obviously need re-writing to clearly state what will happen & not rely on different peoples interpretation

QUOTE(Scribe @ Thu Jun 4 2009, 09:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your statement -

Unfortunately there are a lot of BFTA rules that are pretty much worthless as they are not being followed or enforced & that is the job of the BFTA, the marshals & the shooters. At the moment a group can decide to ingore any of the rules & nothing happens.

Shows that you agree that it is ALL OUR responsibility to police our own sport. If we take no action when we see the rules being flouted, then what is the purpose of the organisation and rules?

Sorry to flog on a bit Scoobs, but we all have to police the sport or we will all suffer.... biggrin.gif


As a shooter I do try to police the rules which is why I have highlighted some problems on this post rather than burying my head in the sand. As I've already said if I see an infringement & a marshal is about I inform them, if the infringement is by a shooter in my group I will tell them.

All your blustering doesn't change the fact that the BFTA & the shoot marshals appear to be doing nothing to ensure the rules are clear/precise & are being adhered to.

Edited by Scooby, 04 June 2009 - 01:44 PM.


#16 Scribe

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 02:07 PM

I AM NOT BLUSTERING!!!!!

(▸ noun: a swaggering show of courage
▸ noun: vain and empty boasting
▸ verb: blow hard; be gusty, as of wind ("A southeaster blustered onshore")
▸ verb: act in an arrogant, overly self-assured, or conceited manner
▸ verb: show off)

Edited by Scribe, 04 June 2009 - 02:09 PM.


#17 Neil Daniels

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 06:46 PM

Every Field Target competition that I shoot I see people breaking the rules, that is a fact.

One competition that I shot recently, I saw a competitor consistently breaking the rules. At the time I was a spectator, in effect powerless, buddy marshalling means your shooting partners are the marshalls, not anyone who happens to be passing by, so I told the nearest marshall. Unfortunately he didn't know the rules so did nothing. I then found another marshall and explained what had happened, he told me he could do nothing as he hadn't seen it and I should have a word with the chief marshall.

When I had word with the chief marshall he also did not know the rules!

What else should I have done?

Physically removed him from the course?

Broken the rules myself when I shot so that he gained no advantage?

Marshalling is a thankless task and I'm not having a go at individuals, but when we all spend thousands of pounds on equipment and countless hours practicing wouldn't it make sense that we are all conversant with the rules, there isn't that many of them.

Neil

#18 Jimz3

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 10:01 AM

QUOTE(Scooby @ Thu Jun 4 2009, 08:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The recent change into Chrono'ing your own groups guns has already seen the rules being broken with some partners allowing OTT rifles to continue in competition by entering a lower FPS onto the scorecard.



It is well known that the BFTA crono is a bit hit and miss. My Styer read 30fps below the reading I took before and after the shoot, this is a common complaint amongst shooters. As the defining measure of power within what is alleged to be the premier FT series in the UK the BFTA have a duty to provide a properly calibrated instrument by which to enforce the rules and define the legality of guns.

This issue and the confusion over rules amongst other things is all part of the Cottage Industry approach of what is supposed to be a national shooting body, but fails miserably.

FT will continue to be a second division shooting sport as long as this type of thing is allowed to continue.

Edited by Jimz3, 02 September 2009 - 10:15 AM.


#19 rich

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 01:18 PM

I agree with your sentiment Jimz3 having campaigned on this issue beyond the brink of unpopularity, but I stop at agreeing that BFTA has a role to define the legality of guns. That's the court's job.

By choosing the arbitrary headroom of 5 fps off the maximum allowed by law, BFTA has at last got themselves off that hook. Effectively it matters not what the rifle shoots at; if it is over the BFTA self-imposed limit then you can't shoot it.

#20 robF

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 05:38 PM

QUOTE(Jimz3 @ Wed Sep 2 2009, 11:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is well known that the BFTA crono is a bit hit and miss. My Styer read 30fps below the reading I took before and after the shoot, this is a common complaint amongst shooters. As the defining measure of power within what is alleged to be the premier FT series in the UK the BFTA have a duty to provide a properly calibrated instrument by which to enforce the rules and define the legality of guns.

This issue and the confusion over rules amongst other things is all part of the Cottage Industry approach of what is supposed to be a national shooting body, but fails miserably.

FT will continue to be a second division shooting sport as long as this type of thing is allowed to continue.


QUOTE(Jimz3 @ Wed Sep 2 2009, 11:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As the defining measure of power within what is alleged to be the premier FT series in the UK the BFTA have a duty to provide a properly calibrated instrument by which to enforce the rules and define the legality of guns.


Here's a big if for you Jim. smile.gif

IF there was a set out test procedure for testing guns for their legality, the BFTA might be able to follow that. But forensic conditions aside, there is no official guidelines even on how to test a gun's legality.

I raised this (legal testing, not the BFTA chrono) with a national shooting body's full time staff member recently (not the BFTA, and I won't name because it's not official comment)... the advice and info was unofficial... it was positive, but that's it. That was a major echelon shooting NGB unofficial comment, and that is about as best as i've heard. I'm not even going to divulge what it was, because it only starts another debate on who thinks who is right.

Really, in my opinion, the BFTA chrono is not a forensic device, the conditions are scientific so there for in my opinion it cannot be used for legal purposes. It is a device used on competitions, and that's how I see it.

We'll have to live under the grey cloud of ambiguous legal definitions and undisclosed (and alleged varying) test procedures, and just try to enjoy what we have. Nothing's perfect, and you only need to chat to one of the BFTA committee/area reps and see how the eyes roll back into their heads to know that it's been debated ad infinitum already. Doesn't mean people can't voice their opinions of course, just I wouldn't hold my breath on it unless there was a fantastic revelation suggested. It's probably 1 of 3 subjects that comes up on the radar at meetings every time.

One can debate the accuracy of the chrono, but it boils down to whether you think there are more benefits to it being there or not. And I guess like everything, make your voice heard through the official channels to see if you can get your point across.

Personally, I think it serves several purposes, but yes, it's not without it's problems, least being it's percerption...

Still, i'd debate that FT is seen as a 2nd class citizen... those in the know, know the problems which full power airgun sport has to work under, and it's given full due credit for just getting as far as it can.

I might be over one day... i shouldn't be... but then i figure the only way to offset that possibility is to shoot as many comps as i can so it offset the pain of the occurrance if it ever happens biggrin.gif





#21 morose

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 08:20 PM

QUOTE(Jimz3 @ Wed Sep 2 2009, 11:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is well known that the BFTA crono is a bit hit and miss. My Styer read 30fps below the reading I took before and after the shoot, this is a common complaint amongst shooters. As the defining measure of power within what is alleged to be the premier FT series in the UK the BFTA have a duty to provide a properly calibrated instrument by which to enforce the rules and define the legality of guns.

This issue and the confusion over rules amongst other things is all part of the Cottage Industry approach of what is supposed to be a national shooting body, but fails miserably.

FT will continue to be a second division shooting sport as long as this type of thing is allowed to continue.


So out of interest what are you proposing to do to resolve these problems?

#22 Jimz3

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 10:05 PM

QUOTE(morose @ Wed Sep 2 2009, 21:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So out of interest what are you proposing to do to resolve these problems?



Quite simple really, purchase a decent reliable chronograph and have it checked regularly.

#23 morose

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 10:17 PM

Sadly not that simple. Before the current chronos were purchased, which I should add are a highly regarded model, two top of the range chronos were used and calibrated at the start of the seasons and there were even more complaints about them hence they were changed.

So any other ideas?

#24 TREV

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 07:29 AM

i know a lot of shooters who use the combro cb-625 to set there rifles up and keep them legal, so for me if they turned up at the crono lane with these in there pocket and proved they were legal on them i have no problems with that. you see the shooter i went round with at sywell went through at 148fps, 0.048 ft lb so if it reads that low in error it can read that high in error, personally i couldnt ruin a shooters day on equipment thats not really up to the job.


TREV

#25 neale m

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 12:35 PM

QUOTE(Jimz3 @ Wed Sep 2 2009, 23:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Quite simple really, purchase a decent reliable chronograph and have it checked regularly.



If they Purchase a decent it still would not be any good for you Jimz3.
All chronograph's are not the same, they will all give the different reading.
We should all use the yellow page's to test the guns, we can see what page we stop at for the power. smile.gif

#26 daz ford

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 01:58 AM

Or thier needs to be a designated BFTA official at the chrono at all times to do the testing ?

Or maybe a completly mobile 'dark room' for the chrono to live in which will be a controlled enviroment ?( back of a van/promo vehicle)


This would help to take most variables out of the chrono issues and would act as a great promotion tool for the BFTA at show's etc.


As for the BFTA not being proffessional enough..... Maybe it is time for them to become a LTD company and employ a part/full time secretary to look after things.And to push themselves to the for front of the shooting sports.

An example of this can be seen with the RS onwers club, they were a club formed by enthusiasts, that just got too big for volunteers to run/manage. They formed a LTD company in 1994ish, and have flourished ever since.


Just my thoughts.



Regards


Daz

#27 rich

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:21 AM

Off topic alarm... poster_oops.gif

I'd agree with you Daz; as a first step I would sub out all of the administration to a professional organisation. There are several companies who specialise in this kind of thing, and that would provide a contact person all day during the day and with backup in case of holidays or sickness etc, all covered by professional indemnity insurance. It would leave the elected officers time to take a strategic view about running the organisation instead of actually having to handle the minutiae.

I do a bit of consulting work for one co-operative organisation with a turnover approaching 4 million and their total spend for all of their admin work is about 80k, just 2 percent of revenue. This co-op has a board of directors and no other employees at all.

#28 Piemanlarger

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:44 AM

perhaps we should have a list of rules we dont think work /are needed /and the ways to resolve the matter. I could list a few i have seen "broken/bent/swerved" and indeed include myself on the list with a fet perhaps!

I would imagine the Bfta would prefere it to be discused on the Bfta forum though?

We should perhaps send this to the comms meetings with regional reps, but that all seems so long winded (once or twice a year?) where as the ability to communicate (almost) instantly with internet allows each member to see different views and pass on to Comm members?

#29 TREV

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:58 AM

QUOTE(neale m @ Thu Sep 3 2009, 13:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If they Purchase a decent it still would not be any good for you Jimz3.
All chronograph's are not the same, they will all give the different reading.
We should all use the yellow page's to test the guns, we can see what page we stop at for the power. smile.gif



no marshall ward catolouges better they seem to always stop in womens underwear section mmmmmmmm

#30 rich

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 10:28 AM

Pieman you're making a very good point for improving a cumbersome system.




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