Doubling up comp cards
Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:17 PM
Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:17 PM
For one thing, one stray shot costs you double.
For another, the scorers aren't daft and it would be spotted.
In our own club internal league, which is an LSR league run to NSRA rules, if a team shooter is tight for time then he or she can elect that their team card will also count as their internal league score for this round, but they have to make that election before they shoot the card.
Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:35 PM
in the 65 years that I've been shooting, this sort of behaviour will be found out and I would think they could quite well be disqualified not only for this season but maybe for the next two or three seasons from competitions. Someone needs to go and talk to the scorers and get it resolved immediately
Edited by Just Jacques, 11 November 2011 - 02:36 PM.
Posted 11 November 2011 - 04:42 PM
Quite simply, no. The only exception under NSRA Rules is the section dealing with damaged or mutilated targets:
witnessed in accordance with Rule 7.6 and the whole sent to the scorer, the witness enclosing an explanation
of the circumstances. The sticker(s) must not be removed from the damaged card.
The specific rules pertaining to some competitions may allow "concurrent" shooting, i.e. the stickers for two competitions may be affixed to one card. But this usually only applies when a team and individual competition is being shot under the auspices of the same organiser.
When a card has been shot behind another it is quite easy to spot, even without the front card to compare. The practice would constitute discreditable conduct and would probably result in a ban for not only the shooter and witness but also any club officials who had condoned the practice.
Posted 11 November 2011 - 08:59 PM
Posted 13 November 2011 - 02:40 PM
I would certainly report it. The whole system of "postal" shooting relies on the integrity of the participants. For those that might argue this is an "honest mistake" by the perpetrators I would counter that on entering any competition; especially one that relies to a high degree on trust; it is your duty to scrupulously observe the rules. That in turn requires that you ensure you are thoroughly conversant with them and if what you describe is happening then this is clearly not the case.
However if this is an "honest mistake" then you could consider bringing it to the attention of the culprits and suggest they voluntarily withdraw from any competitions where they have employed this practice. You would have to make it plain though, that should they not comply you would have no hesitation in reporting them.
Finally, if you have knowledge of a serious infringement and fail to bring it to the attention of the appropriate body then you are in effect complicit yourself.
Square up and do the right thing.
Posted 13 November 2011 - 08:48 PM
Posted 13 November 2011 - 09:01 PM
You don't need evidence to report what you have heard. It is up to the league organisers to investigate in order to ascertain whether or not there is any substance to the reports.
Posted 13 November 2011 - 10:26 PM
Posted 14 November 2011 - 08:43 AM
They have entered a competition and they are not abiding by the rules. They have only shot once, but are claiming that they shot twice, or more. If it was allowed we could put all the stickers for the whole league on one card and settle it all on Round 1 and not bother with the hassle of shooting the other 9 rounds. If a league is of 10 rounds of 20 shots, total 200, then that is what you are required to fire, not some lesser number.
The most serious aspect of the affair is not the action itself but the failure to comply with the witnessing rules. The witness signs that they have seen the cards shot and are satisfied that the rules were observed. If what is described has occurred then this is clearly not the case. The witnesses are either negligent or complicit.
Postal competitions rely on trust. If you cannot trust all competitors to abide by the rules then the whole system becomes unworkable. The argument that those who cheat are only cheating themselves is fallacious, they deny the enjoyment of open competition to everyone else.
Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:18 PM
That's not what is being discussed. They are shooting cards for several different competitions at the same time. Not different rounds of the same competition at the same time (which I think is unacceptable).
Or the witnesses don't know what the rules say about this subject and can't see any obvious advantage the shooter has gained.
I am drawing a distinction between outright cheating and doing something which gains no advantage in terms of score but done out of convenience. Is it actually against the rules?
Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:26 PM
Do you fancy quoting the specific rule for my education?
Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:44 PM
You have missed the point, it does not matter which card is in front and which is behind, they are claiming to have shot both in accordance with the rules. They will have used half the aimed shots to count for twice the score!
It is against the NSRA Rules:
"7.4.2 A shooter may have more than one match card and a sighting or practice card facing him on the butts at the same time.
22.214.171.124 No shooter is allowed to have more than one card at any one butt at any one time."
The status and duties of the witness are to be found in the NSRA Rules Section 7.5-7.6. The rules may be downloaded from the Reference section of the NSRA Website. If you do not wish to download and study them, then at least read the Foreword which is reproduced verbatim below:
Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:31 PM
The rules you quote above make references to "butt" is that the same as a single card target holder? I've assumed they don't mean someone's backside but rules are full of surprises like that, deadpan humour and all that, init?
Posted 14 November 2011 - 06:35 PM
At post #7 of this thread you referred to not having any "evidence" of wrongdoing. You may find the following extract from the NSRA Rules helpful (I have added emphasis where appropriate):
competitions. Any shooter or witness conniving at such conduct renders himself liable to similar penalties. Any
person failing to report immediately to the NSRA any breach of rules and regulations which is known to or
suspected by him also renders himself liable to similar penalties.
Posted 18 November 2011 - 02:29 PM
Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:38 AM
However...If it were doubling up of same season comp cards then obviously that is wrong but doubling up different league comp cards to save time shooting on range , doesn't sound as SERIOUS an issue to me?? But..If rules are rules then so be it.
Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:12 PM
It say the whole of the target scoring area and the aiming mark must be visible to the firer. Can't do that with cards back to back.
Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:48 PM
Ok, so they can't see the target scoring area of the target at the back and that's against the rules... but do you reckon they are gaining an advantage by breaking this rule?
Posted 29 November 2011 - 10:44 PM
I'm no world champion but I've picked up a few gongs along the way.
Now my paper target shooting tends to result in reasonably consistent scoring, occasionally let down by a stray shot, usually due to tiredness or not enough attention to technique. It's not normally a case of shoot-and-hope shots sometimes lifted by the odd bull.
So, I would see the odds like this. If I make a fluff shot it's bad enough dragging down one card, let alone two at the same time, and in the course of an evening's shooting I wouldn't expect more than a couple of bad shots. I shot ten LSR cards of 5 last Friday, 47, 49, 50, 47, 46, 45, 44, 46, 44, 47. The two 44s both included a 7 which I was hopping mad over at the time. If those two poor shots had given me four 7s I would have been livid.
Posted 29 November 2011 - 11:32 PM
Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:38 PM
Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:49 PM
So far I have gathered that you think it's cheating and that you're not happy about it. That's great.
Since I'm curious to understand your exact point of view can you try to be more specific - so when you say "ITS CHEATING" do you think someone who shoots doubled up competition cards together for two independent competitions are gaining an unfair advantage in actual terms of their score, or do you just mean they are cheating because they aren't following the rules to the letter? See the distinction?
Congrats on your shooting achievements - what discipline did you shoot in at international level? I've been shooting 10m match pistol since June and am enjoying the challenge.
Edited by Numb Nut, 30 November 2011 - 07:50 PM.
Posted 04 December 2011 - 02:32 PM
I shot centrefire combat pistol going back to the 1970s, long-distance centrefire rifle up to a mile, national and international competitions .22 pistol, won my class in 1989 shooting air pistol .177 at the last Ely meeting in Cardiff, loads of local competitions but I'm age 75 now so just have a very pokey air rifle for the squirrels and the magpies
I was a marksman in the forces fighting in the desert in the 1950s but I won't go there as that's very confidential
Edited by Just Jacques, 04 December 2011 - 02:35 PM.
Posted 03 July 2012 - 08:59 PM
Easrlier in this thread someone said maybe the witness doesn't know the rules - if so they must not witness targets - that is also one of the rules and frankly should be self evident as the witness is signing that the rules have been followed. They can't do that if they don't know the rules.. In my current club only committee members may witness external competition cards for just this reason.
Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:14 PM
If it's fair then the club in question will have no problem with being named in public ;-)
Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:25 AM
Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:53 AM
It's doing something against the spirit of all target shooting even if it's not strictly breaking the rules.
It is against the rules and any target that was presented to me as a scorer and I suspected had been shot behind another target would be disqualified. The matter would be reported to the league organisers and the NSRA for further investigation.
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