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Doubling up comp cards


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#1 sg1

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:17 PM

I was talking to a friend in East Sussex the other day and he says they get tight for time at their club sometimes so they're allowed to shoot two seperate comps at once by placing one card behind other!! Now I can see this in theory being acceptable as it's two 'seperate comps' but .... should this be allowed?

atvb

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#2 rich

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:17 PM

I wouldn't risk it.

For one thing, one stray shot costs you double.

For another, the scorers aren't daft and it would be spotted.

In our own club internal league, which is an LSR league run to NSRA rules, if a team shooter is tight for time then he or she can elect that their team card will also count as their internal league score for this round, but they have to make that election before they shoot the card.

#3 Just Jacques

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:35 PM

No! this is definitely not right in fact I would go as far as to say it's cheating. Each card must be shot on its own merits and putting one car behind another is wrong mad.gif

in the 65 years that I've been shooting, this sort of behaviour will be found out and I would think they could quite well be disqualified not only for this season but maybe for the next two or three seasons from competitions. Someone needs to go and talk to the scorers and get it resolved immediately mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif

Edited by Just Jacques, 11 November 2011 - 02:36 PM.


#4 Rutty

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 04:42 PM

QUOTE
I was talking to a friend in East Sussex the outer day and he says they get tight for time at their club sometimes so they're allowed to shoot two seperate comps at once by placing one card behind other!! Now I can see this in theory being acceptable as it's two 'seperate comps' but .... should this be allowed?


Quite simply, no. The only exception under NSRA Rules is the section dealing with damaged or mutilated targets:

QUOTE
7.4.5 Any card received in a damaged or mutilated condition without a satisfactory explanation will not be scored. A card irreparably damaged before shooting by the intended competitor should be affixed back-to-back with a new card and mounted so that shots pass through both cards. The new card should be named, signed and
witnessed in accordance with Rule 7.6 and the whole sent to the scorer, the witness enclosing an explanation
of the circumstances. The sticker(s) must not be removed from the damaged card.


The specific rules pertaining to some competitions may allow "concurrent" shooting, i.e. the stickers for two competitions may be affixed to one card. But this usually only applies when a team and individual competition is being shot under the auspices of the same organiser.

When a card has been shot behind another it is quite easy to spot, even without the front card to compare. The practice would constitute discreditable conduct and would probably result in a ban for not only the shooter and witness but also any club officials who had condoned the practice.

Rutty

#5 sg1

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 08:59 PM

That's EXACTLY what I thought!! so should I just turn my back or report it to the approprite body???

atvb

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#6 Rutty

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE
That's EXACTLY what I thought!! so should I just turn my back or report it to the approprite body???


I would certainly report it. The whole system of "postal" shooting relies on the integrity of the participants. For those that might argue this is an "honest mistake" by the perpetrators I would counter that on entering any competition; especially one that relies to a high degree on trust; it is your duty to scrupulously observe the rules. That in turn requires that you ensure you are thoroughly conversant with them and if what you describe is happening then this is clearly not the case.

However if this is an "honest mistake" then you could consider bringing it to the attention of the culprits and suggest they voluntarily withdraw from any competitions where they have employed this practice. You would have to make it plain though, that should they not comply you would have no hesitation in reporting them.

Finally, if you have knowledge of a serious infringement and fail to bring it to the attention of the appropriate body then you are in effect complicit yourself.

Square up and do the right thing.

Rutty

#7 sg1

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 08:48 PM

But being they're a 'few' miles away from me, I haven't 'actually' witnessed what's allegegly going on, so I have no evidence sad.gif

atvb

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#8 Rutty

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE
But being they're a 'few' miles away from me, I haven't 'actually' witnessed what's allegegly going on, so I have no evidence


You don't need evidence to report what you have heard. It is up to the league organisers to investigate in order to ascertain whether or not there is any substance to the reports.

Rutty

#9 Numb Nut

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 10:26 PM

Perhaps I've missed the point - this really doesn't sound like the worst sin - at the end of the day they are shooting their competition cards themselves and aren't gaining an unfair advantage regarding the score. It might not be correct under the rules but it just doesn't sound like cheating to me.

#10 Rutty

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 08:43 AM

QUOTE
Perhaps I've missed the point - this really doesn't sound like the worst sin - at the end of the day they are shooting their competition cards themselves and aren't gaining an unfair advantage regarding the score. It might not be correct under the rules but it just doesn't sound like cheating to me.


They have entered a competition and they are not abiding by the rules. They have only shot once, but are claiming that they shot twice, or more. If it was allowed we could put all the stickers for the whole league on one card and settle it all on Round 1 and not bother with the hassle of shooting the other 9 rounds. If a league is of 10 rounds of 20 shots, total 200, then that is what you are required to fire, not some lesser number.

The most serious aspect of the affair is not the action itself but the failure to comply with the witnessing rules. The witness signs that they have seen the cards shot and are satisfied that the rules were observed. If what is described has occurred then this is clearly not the case. The witnesses are either negligent or complicit.

Postal competitions rely on trust. If you cannot trust all competitors to abide by the rules then the whole system becomes unworkable. The argument that those who cheat are only cheating themselves is fallacious, they deny the enjoyment of open competition to everyone else.

Rutty

#11 Numb Nut

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:18 PM

QUOTE(Rutty)
They have only shot once, but are claiming that they shot twice, or more. If it was allowed we could put all the stickers for the whole league on one card and settle it all on Round 1 and not bother with the hassle of shooting the other 9 rounds. If a league is of 10 rounds of 20 shots, total 200, then that is what you are required to fire, not some lesser number.


That's not what is being discussed. They are shooting cards for several different competitions at the same time. Not different rounds of the same competition at the same time (which I think is unacceptable).

QUOTE
The most serious aspect of the affair is not the action itself but the failure to comply with the witnessing rules. The witness signs that they have seen the cards shot and are satisfied that the rules were observed. If what is described has occurred then this is clearly not the case. The witnesses are either negligent or complicit.


Or the witnesses don't know what the rules say about this subject and can't see any obvious advantage the shooter has gained.

I am drawing a distinction between outright cheating and doing something which gains no advantage in terms of score but done out of convenience. Is it actually against the rules?

#12 Just Jacques

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:23 PM

YES

#13 Numb Nut

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:26 PM

QUOTE(Just Jacques)
YES


Do you fancy quoting the specific rule for my education? smile.gif

#14 Rutty

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:44 PM

QUOTE
That's not what is being discussed. They are shooting cards for several different competitions at the same time. Not different rounds of the same competition at the same time (which I think is unacceptable).


You have missed the point, it does not matter which card is in front and which is behind, they are claiming to have shot both in accordance with the rules. They will have used half the aimed shots to count for twice the score!

It is against the NSRA Rules:

"7.4.2 A shooter may have more than one match card and a sighting or practice card facing him on the butts at the same time.
and
8.15.3.4 No shooter is allowed to have more than one card at any one butt at any one time."

The status and duties of the witness are to be found in the NSRA Rules Section 7.5-7.6. The rules may be downloaded from the Reference section of the NSRA Website. If you do not wish to download and study them, then at least read the Foreword which is reproduced verbatim below:

QUOTE
IT CANNOT BE STRESSED TOO STRONGLY THAT THE SUCCESS OF SHOOTING, AND PARTICULARLY OF POSTAL SHOOTING, DEPENDS ON STRICT ADHERENCE TO THE RULES AND CONSCIENTIOUS WITNESSING BY QUALIFIED OFFICIALS WHO MUST BE FULLY CONVERSANT WITH THESE RULES.


Rutty

#15 Numb Nut

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:31 PM

I agree with the quoted text - postal leagues are all about trust and everyone has to play to the same rules otherwise it's just not cricket.

The rules you quote above make references to "butt" is that the same as a single card target holder? I've assumed they don't mean someone's backside but rules are full of surprises like that, deadpan humour and all that, init?

#16 Rutty

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 06:35 PM

sg1,

At post #7 of this thread you referred to not having any "evidence" of wrongdoing. You may find the following extract from the NSRA Rules helpful (I have added emphasis where appropriate):

QUOTE
1.7.2 A shooter or team infringing any rule or regulation or proved guilty of any dishonest, discreditable or dangerous conduct is rendered liable to disqualification and to suspension from taking part in any further NSRA
competitions. Any shooter or witness conniving at such conduct renders himself liable to similar penalties. Any
person failing to report immediately to the NSRA any breach of rules and regulations which is known to or
suspected by him also renders himself liable to similar penalties.


Rutty

#17 Just Jacques

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 02:29 PM

It's cheating, no question about it, rules is rules, whoever is doing this needs reporting, it's not telling tales, there are other people competing honestly and fairly mad.gif

#18 sg1

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:38 AM

Well,...I sent a letter(anon) to the club in questions secretary so I've done my bit.

However...If it were doubling up of same season comp cards then obviously that is wrong but doubling up different league comp cards to save time shooting on range , doesn't sound as SERIOUS an issue to me?? But..If rules are rules then so be it.

atvb

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#19 rich

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:12 PM

Look at rule 1.10.10.

It say the whole of the target scoring area and the aiming mark must be visible to the firer. Can't do that with cards back to back.

#20 sg1

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:25 PM

very true sir.

atvb

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#21 Numb Nut

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:48 PM

QUOTE(rich @ Tue Nov 29 2011, 19:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It say the whole of the target scoring area and the aiming mark must be visible to the firer. Can't do that with cards back to back.


Ok, so they can't see the target scoring area of the target at the back and that's against the rules... but do you reckon they are gaining an advantage by breaking this rule?

#22 rich

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 10:44 PM

Well, I wouldn't risk it.

I'm no world champion but I've picked up a few gongs along the way. smile.gif

Now my paper target shooting tends to result in reasonably consistent scoring, occasionally let down by a stray shot, usually due to tiredness or not enough attention to technique. It's not normally a case of shoot-and-hope shots sometimes lifted by the odd bull.

So, I would see the odds like this. If I make a fluff shot it's bad enough dragging down one card, let alone two at the same time, and in the course of an evening's shooting I wouldn't expect more than a couple of bad shots. I shot ten LSR cards of 5 last Friday, 47, 49, 50, 47, 46, 45, 44, 46, 44, 47. The two 44s both included a 7 which I was hopping mad over at the time. If those two poor shots had given me four 7s I would have been livid.

#23 blind dog

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 11:32 PM

+1 to Just Jacques. It can't be right to score it that way.

#24 Just Jacques

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:38 PM

As an ex National and International Shooter I can tell you ITS CHEATING mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif

#25 Numb Nut

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:49 PM

QUOTE(Just Jacques @ Wed Nov 30 2011, 14:38) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As an ex National and International Shooter I can tell you ITS CHEATING mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif


So far I have gathered that you think it's cheating and that you're not happy about it. That's great.

Since I'm curious to understand your exact point of view can you try to be more specific - so when you say "ITS CHEATING" do you think someone who shoots doubled up competition cards together for two independent competitions are gaining an unfair advantage in actual terms of their score, or do you just mean they are cheating because they aren't following the rules to the letter? See the distinction?

Congrats on your shooting achievements - what discipline did you shoot in at international level? I've been shooting 10m match pistol since June and am enjoying the challenge. smile.gif

Edited by Numb Nut, 30 November 2011 - 07:50 PM.


#26 Just Jacques

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 02:32 PM

Doubling up cards is against the rules, even if it's to 2 different competitions, each card should be shot in its own right.

I shot centrefire combat pistol going back to the 1970s, long-distance centrefire rifle up to a mile, national and international competitions .22 pistol, won my class in 1989 shooting air pistol .177 at the last Ely meeting in Cardiff, loads of local competitions but I'm age 75 now so just have a very pokey air rifle for the squirrels and the magpies smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

I was a marksman in the forces fighting in the desert in the 1950s but I won't go there as that's very confidential

Edited by Just Jacques, 04 December 2011 - 02:35 PM.


#27 maurice

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 08:59 PM

Many years ago a shooter in a club I was at did just this. He was shooting in two different postal leagues and reasoned that once the cards were posted off no-one would be able to tell he had shot them back to back. What he didn't know was that the same chap scored both leagues. The result was a two year ban (that's 4 seasons) on all competition shooting for both the shooter and the witness.

Easrlier in this thread someone said maybe the witness doesn't know the rules - if so they must not witness targets - that is also one of the rules and frankly should be self evident as the witness is signing that the rules have been followed. They can't do that if they don't know the rules.. In my current club only committee members may witness external competition cards for just this reason.

#28 magicniner

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:14 PM

It's doing something against the spirit of all target shooting even if it's not strictly breaking the rules.
If it's fair then the club in question will have no problem with being named in public ;-)

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#29 sg1

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:25 AM

Someone at our own club suggested doubling up 2 seperate comp cards the other day and as I was the RCO that evening I had a 'quiet word' outside the club door.... needless to say....they ended up NOT saving ammo.

atvb

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#30 Rutty

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:53 AM

It's doing something against the spirit of all target shooting even if it's not strictly breaking the rules.


It is against the rules and any target that was presented to me as a scorer and I suspected had been shot behind another target would be disqualified. The matter would be reported to the league organisers and the NSRA for further investigation.

Rutty




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